So I was at the Bass-n-Tubes delta open the other day chatting it up with swampy dave, IFISH, fishcat, Mitch and the gang. A very important topic of conversation came up as we were shooting the breeze. Dave brought it up I think because he had a reel spooled up with Cajun Red line. If you're familiar with Cajun line their marketing informs the angler that red is the first color to disappear underwater and because of that, Cajun red line starts to 'disappear' to the fish in as little as 3 feet of water. This sounds good no? We all want invisible line.

So the next point brought up was one of my favorites, the red hook. The bloody lures are still multiplying out there and it seems like half of what you see now has a red hook in it. Everywhere I am reading how I need to use red hooks because they look like blood!

But wait, I'm confused... According to the folks at Cajun line, red can 'disappear' in as little as 3 feet of water. So if you are using red hooks and fishing deep, is your hook becoming invisible? Invisible hooks sound great to me but I thought the whole point of using a red hook was the blood, you know... like the fish sees the lure and mistakes the hook for... blood. Yeah that makes sense because so many things underwater are always bleeding all the damn time because fish blood only coagulates underwater almost immediately and ... oh hell my brain hurts.

So a few questions that come up in this critical discussion...

If red 'disappears' underwater, does fish blood disappear underwater also?

Can fish see their own blood?

Is a red snapper invisible?

How come bass didn't adapt to turn red so that they could be invisible?

How come no freshwater game fish are red?

If I wear a red wetsuit, can I hide from sharks?

Your input is welcome :) This is important!

I have read your take on the red hook thing before, you bring up some great points. Its funny how so many swear by adding a red hook to thier lures. Example: Replacing the center or front hook on certain jerk baits, Said by KVD.
So if red disapears, then how does one explain the red flake in plastics? I know it works, on particular fisheries. The Beaver "420", Robo worm: ArronsMagic or Ox blood with red flake. Senko Watermelon red flake. These can be very affective. If red disapeared then way the red flake?

Good topic Rob.

Bryan

To fish is to live!

That is funny Rob, "Is a red snapper invisible?". Maybe the Cajun line disapears because mono is somewhat transparent in nature and with the line being red it is more invisible than the more common colors of mono. Maybe it's just a gimmic to sell more line?? I have no idea but you do bring up some valid questions....

Why haven't shad and other bait fish adapted and become red.

What does a trout with a nice red gill plate and a red stripe look like to a bass?

Bass must find and eat most crawdads by vibrations because they could surely never see the red ones...

Jake J

http://calfishing.com/gallery/v/members/jakej/

I don't get to much into the red hook issue but I do use them on my topwaters. It does make small difference for them. But for drop shotting or other things I don't believe it makes much difference. Pro fisherman Rich Tauber once told us at one of my club meetings about the red hook craze. What he told us was that the color red, starts to turn brown the deeper you go into the water coloumn. This being a study down by one of his sponsors Diachi Hooks. So for surface down to maybe 10ft it might benefit you. But to each his own and what ever gives you confidence.

I love this red stuff too..lets clarify..disappear..The color "Red" is no longer visible as red after a few feet in the water..it actually changes (or appears too change) too gray,then with more depth,it appears black.I've never understood cajuns statements of disappearing line..Or understood putting red hooks on deep diving crakbaits or jigs..after a few feet they appear black anyway.
The thought (or so they say)putting red hooks on top waters and shallow running cranks is too mimic gill flash.I have never seen when red hooks used under the proper circumstances (shallow)can hurt your catch ratio,and AT TIMES,can help.
There is a excellent book that came out a few years ago called "What Fish See"it was written by a eye doctor(can't remember his name)but it discusses color visibility.This guy is a big steelhead fisherman,and his research is outstanding.The mepps Co. hired him ..Nathan
www.Bettencourtbaits.com

I really have no idea what the red hook is supposed to mimic, but changing out front hooks for red ones on jerkbaits, topwater, and cranks has helped me in some way. I really don't feel like I get more bites because of the red hook, but I do think that it gives the fish something to key in on when they're going after the bait. If the fish sees a bait and doesn't want it, I don't think the red hook is going to make a difference at all. I just get a better fish in the boat to fish that bit my bait ratio with the red front treble. You also have to remember that I spend most of my time on super clear lakes. Red fades to grey even faster in dirty water so this stuff might not apply for everyone in every situation. Whatever though. Works for me. :P

Jake

I will try and answer some questions. :+

If red 'disappears' underwater, does fish blood disappear underwater also?..I am not sold on the fact that red disappears underwater.

Can fish see their own blood?
Can you? Maybe as long as its not coming out of your nose or mouth lol

Is a red snapper invisible?
this question just makes me laugh to hard so I cant comment

How come bass didn't adapt to turn red so that they could be invisible? God you listening, I think this one is for you. I guess the real question is does God have internet up there and if so does he visit calfishing? Has he ever logged in?

How come no freshwater game fish are red?
look at the pics from the scbbbc clear lake event, some of those fish are so beat up they are red

If I wear a red wetsuit, can I hide from sharks?
Lets find out, get your red suit and let me borrow your video camera so we can show everyone the answer. Just let me have some fun and attach some monster trebles to your back :P


On a serious note: I did hear something somewhere about this topic. I think ti was bassfan or something. I recall them saying something to the fact that since line was circular and both in and out of the water that light would penatrate through the line making it disappear in water. However hooks were made of metal and have flash and actually makes them stand out.

IMO: Red line isnt a good idea and besides we all know swampy is blind as hell sometimes and thats the only reason he needs to use it. Hell I bet he didnt even relize the line was red until someone told him :) . Like other have said i do believe red hooks have a place and time when they will make a difference. At Oroville last month fishing the FLW Fed. event I had an all day spook bite going on schooling spots in 50-200+ ft of water. I caught over 32 fish and my partner couldnt even get a limit. 95% of the fish keyed in on the red hook at the top of the spook and had it in there mouth. I believed this trip, this day it mattered. I believe these fish were schooled up chasing bait everywhere the bait went. They would see the spook on top of the bait acting wierd and would charge it from hella far away. At the last second they would see the red hook and that would be there target to kill the bait. My partner didnt have the red hook and the fish wouldnt even come close to eating the biat like mine. A lot of his fish actually turned away at the last second, while I had fish doing backflips to eat it. Like I said it mattered on that day and that time, doesnt mean I will have red hooks on all my baits.

I think the best way to find these answers is to look online for things that discuss the characteristics of the color red on the EM spectrum. You will find it is a rather peculiar light frequency. There are things about it, and its reflectiveness that are unique. There are reasons why you can use red lights in a dark room, and why red lights are used as brake lights. It all has something to do with the fact reflected red light waves don't bend or something like that. and I'm sure the fact that water creates the refraction phenomena (which bends light waves) has some part to play. I'm not smart enough to put all these things together, but maybe someone out there can look it up for us and teach us.

good topic,

Ryan Thoni


If people concentrated on the important things in life there would be a shortage of fishing poles.
~Doug Larson

Whoever said that red dissapears under water was maybe missing the boat here. Everybody here I think agrees that we see red things under water.

Bass are attracted to red because it looks like gills. You either believe that, or your completley wasting time and money buying red hooks. Nobody I know believes that bass mysteriously cannot see a bright red hook. Maybe it's true because I'm not laying claim that I know anything whatsoever about a bass's eyes. That said, i just use common sense. I don't really care to be honest. I have some red hooks, and some bronze and some silver. I just go with my instincts on what looks more natural in the water. You have to generalize that a bass sees somewhat similiar things as we humans do because why else does live bait and huddlestons seem to do better in clear water? So bass are obviously seeing our presentations pretty well. So just go with what looks natural is my motto.

I wish you could talk to the person who was trying to sell product and said "red hooks dissapear under water". If he was to read this post, your questions would have really pissed him off... hahahah.:)

Could a shark see me if I wear a red suit.

http://www.calfishing.com/gallery/v/members/bigreenjobass/

I posted on this topic last time Rob brought it up and it was a good, informative topic. I use red trebles on topwaters, shallow cranks, and have some red trailers on my spinnerbaits. I think you''ll lose "the red advantage" in deeper water not because they're invisible. I just think they turn a darker, much less flahy red. I think fish share a lot common things with us as far as vision goes but I think they have a harder time seeing more subtle changes of color such as the diiference between blacks and darker reds. Thus a fish would probably smell fish blood (yes, even bass) in deeper waters faster than it would recognize what exact color it is. But I shallow water I think red stands out better and starts that wire in the fish's brain that says "Wounded prey!" :9

But really, I'll use red to stand out more when sight fishing bed fish too. And I can't deny the effectiveness of red flake. I mean, the CA 420 Beaver is probably the most consistently best color on my local lake! And the oxblood red flake Robo ,man, unstoppable at times. Could be that in weedy lake craws can take on more of a reddish color...who knows! And I've seen bass only hit the red hook on a topwater too. Whatever, as long as they work I'll use red hooks in some situations.

Bass + Fisherman= BAASS ADDICTT!!!

Time to refer to my fish bible: "The life story of a fish: his manners and morals"

in the chapter about senses, subsection sight:
"Can fish tell color? There have been more experiments on this than anyother phase of the fish's vision. The answer is yes, as least in so far as the fisherman is concerned.

They conducted experiments with LMB in seperate, all white tanks. and fed them through different colored pipes. Some colors giving it a shock, and some giving it food.
The result was that it learned over time and stopped going to the shocking color, even when there was no shock, and still went to the feeding color even when there was no food.

but heres and interesting side note of the experiment:

"One of the first findings was that the untrained black bass, before conditioning had started, had a strong prefrence for red over all other colors."
"yellow was the next favorable"

hmmm theres something neat. doesnt exactly answer the question, and of course tanks are shallow and are full of clear waer, but an interesting note.

results:
"In the end, the expirements proved that bass could tell red from any other color with the xeption of violet and almost equally sure on yellow. greens and blues were the hardest for him to distinguish from each other and from black. Brightness proved to play no part, for not only was the bass able to tell the training red from any other shades of grey, but if he were offered some other shade of red, he would chose that over the greys.

after putting all of the color experiments togather in this book, they concluded that bass see's (colorwise) almost the same as we would if we were wearing a yellowish tinted pair of glasses.

just some interesting stuff for ya'll

Ryan Thoni


If people concentrated on the important things in life there would be a shortage of fishing poles.
~Doug Larson

Girlfriend, red is sooooo out. Black and white is everywhere this season: in solids, prints, embellished pieces, separates and accessories. Get with it!!!

*snap*

SLM....LOL!!..Nathan
www.Bettencourtbaits.com

I seem to remember learning that the colors change at certain depths. I thought red turned to blue or somehting like that after a few feet. But I really thought that red and white stayed visible for the deepest before they go away hence all the white and red salt water lures...I still think its a gimmic except for in Oregon. The smallies hit the red hook on a crank bait. If it was in the front or in the back then that was the hook they were pinned on.

There is a scientific explanation for all this but I'll try to keep it simple.

Our eyes are sensitive to light which lies in a very small region of the electromagnetic spectrum labeled "visible light". This "visible light" corresponds to a wavelength range of 400 - 700 nanometers (nm) and a color range of violet through red. The human eye is not capable of "seeing" radiation with wavelengths outside the visible spectrum. The visible colors from shortest to longest wavelength are: violet, blue, green, yellow, orange, and red. Ultraviolet radiation has a shorter wavelength than the visible violet light. Infrared radiation has a longer wavelength than visible red light. The white light is a mixture of the colors of the visible spectrum. Black is a total absence of light.

Ya still with me? OK then.

Red light has longer a wavelength and less energy than violet light. This is the reason that the color red is the first color to fade away under water. The color red will eventually fade to black as you get deeper under water and light penetration diminishes. In clear water you can see the color red at much greater depths than in dirty water. Eventually as you go deeper to where light cannot penetrate at all every color of the visible spectrum will fade to black.

Enough of that stuff my brain hurts.
I'll try to answer your questions now

If red 'disappears' underwater, does fish blood disappear underwater also?
> Nope, but only because it coagulates underwater almost immediately.

Can fish see their own blood?
> Only when they are bleeding in shallow water.

Is a red snapper invisible?
> Only to female red snappers unless they have a fat wallet and a cool car.

How come bass didn't adapt to turn red so that they could be invisible?
> Hey, evolution takes a long time. Be patient.

How come no freshwater game fish are red?
> What, Goldfish aren't good enough or red enough for you?

If I wear a red wetsuit, can I hide from sharks?
> Ummm, no.



Hey Lake, I'm watching you }(

I'm enjoying all of your responses, thankyou :)

My post was pretty tounge in cheek because I think a lot of fishing related marketing is simply made up, but the topic of fishing seeing color has always fascinated me.

When I was in 7th grade, I set out to determine if trout could see color or not. I read some various articles and books about the topic (which were mostly over my head) and I did an experiment. The experiment went something like this...

My mom drove me down to the Fillmore fish hatchery after we talked to them on the phone. They gave me 5 rainbow trout for my experiment. We put the trout in a cooler with lots of ice as they recommended. When we got to the house, all of the trout looked to be completely dead, floating upside down.

After about 20 minutes in the tank though, they all magically came back to life (phew). The hatchery had given me a nice supply of purina trout chow so I commenced taking care of these trout in an 80 gallon tank on the side of the house.

For the experiment I would put different color ping pong balls in the water. For certain colors, I would feed them. For other colors I wouldn't feed them. I'd try to track their behavior, like if they got excited and went by the ping pong balls or not. Ok ok, it wasn't the best experiment but it was 7th grade so cut me some slack :)

The results of the experiment were inconclusive but I did learn a few things about hatchery trout. For one, they grow REALLY fast. I only had the trout a few months and they grew about 2 inches. The other thing about hatchery trout is that they are prolific waste producers, I mean if you knew how much trout pooped... you'd be shocked.

Anyway, I do believe that fish can see color. Mountainbass' book had a much better experiment than mine and things like that make me believe. I also think that lure color can be very important... sometimes. Spotted bass especially seem picky about color, but largemouth can be picky too. I'm not a huge fan of red as a lure color in general but imitating red gills with something never seem like a bad idea. My best thought about color is that that the colors a fish prefers to eat have a lot to do with what color food that fish has eaten in the recent past. Fish 'get smart' pretty quick when food is involved and by in large they're a hungry bunch.

http://shopping.yahoo.com/p:What%20Fish%20See%3A%20Understanding%20Optics%20and%20Color%20Shifts%20for%20Designing%20Lures%20and%20Flies:3001164590;_ylc=X3oDMTB1c21tcDhkBF9TAzk2NjMyOTA3BHNlYwNmZWVkBHNsawNib29rcw--

Rob,Here is a link too that book I mentioned...Excellent read..Nathan


www.Bettencourtbaits.com

Insofar as none of us are trained physisists and/or ichthioid behavorialists, most of what has been said in this thread amounts to anecdote and testimony-both of which wont add up to a hill of beans. Remember, anecdotes are little stories told and retold. We embelesh as well has suffer from the human condition of emotion and faulty memory when telling our stories. Testimony suffers from the same problems. Therefor anecdote and testimony cannot be used to properly answer serious questions about the nature of our universe, regardless of whether we are investigating the the visibility of the color red at various depths under water and its feeding influences on large mouth bass, or the affect of the electro weak force on the life of a neutron inside the core of a medium sized star. Why was the scientific method developed? Because over the years a genius or two would pop up and figure out through proper observation and experimentation answers to good questions(yes, there are stupid questions) which would contrast both common sense as well as the anecdotes and testimonies of people over the years. Prior to ranting on about a subject it is wise to investigate resources. Additionally, a basic understanding of the scientific method will arm the investigator as to the reliability of the research. At this point in my life I would rather read a good novel than do any serious research on the color red and its visibility under water. However it has been quite entertaining reading your thoughts about it all. Day before yesterday I boated five very nice red rock cod. It was only red rock cod that were hitting my bait-which was a 7" blue and green/silver flake swimbait and a 4oz red jig head. Does this prove anything? No, because it was not a well designed experiment. Will I use that combination again. You bet. But there is no garauntee that it will work. The bottom line is-fishing is fun. I like to think that much of what we fish with works at one time or another and every time out offers different conditions in which to try and get those ichthiods(I don't even know if thats the proper term) to ingest my artificial food. If you read this entire response-thank you. I just wrote it mostly to have fun writing and to play with some big words. I am able to write this but not smart enough to figure out how to post my dang pictures. I don't know how to change the file size! I am using a Mac with OS10.4 and Iphoto, my browser is Safari. Can anyone help me?

Wow. The instrumental values shared among fellow board members here are re-iterated throughout various posts as seen above. The real reason for biological field testing is to advance human kind farther than we ever imagined. The commercialism effect on science has regressed some people to make statements that are not necessarily true. IE Red is invisible under water. When somebody says something about a product, its always good to see if there is a motive first. The person that said that might have worked for Berkely or another fishing co. A clear and obvious motive would be to sell their red products. Do we believe everything we hear? Unforunately, all to much we do. The stuff that is on TV, all the commercials....Very rarely does somebody investigate if the commercials are respresnting the full truth. And my assumption would be that very rarely does the commercial industry represnt truth. Instead, subbing out the truth for money. In all, life is good. And I want to go fishing. Also, the systematic approach that I use to go fishing is so complicated I would crash the entire calfishing website if I was to explain it. Actually I can sum up my systematic approach like this: go with your instincts. And most importantly of all.....Don't listen to dock talk. Don't listen to anyone. I've never gotten on some amazing, big fish bite by listening to a bunch of drunk rednecks talk about fishing...I've gotten on big fish by using common sense and going with my instincts.....And, finally, I'm going fishing. Thank you.

http://www.calfishing.com/gallery/v/members/bigreenjobass/

Dammit Mountainbass! You gave away the next big sales gimmick before I got my patents in. ...'The study learned that The Bass favored the color RED ,and "the next favored color was YELLOW!" My new line of YELLOW trebles is supposed to hit the stores by Christmas,but NOOOOOOO , now ALL the CopyCat Bait Co lures will already come with YELLOW trebles and I'll lose my shirt when no one has to upgrade from RED to YELLOW trebles when we fishermen/marketeers collectively decide that "the bass have now become conditioned to RED hooks and will no longer hit lures with the aforemention RED hooks"...and every one is scrambling to mass produce YELLOW hooks before my Boutique line of Hi-Vis YELLLLLLLOW hooks is available from Tackle Wishhouse! OK, OK ,what is the NEXT favored color AFTER Yellow????????? PLEH EM!:P x( :7 -- ALEX the YELLOW........

I much prefer it when a woman leaves me, for then I know the mistake is hers. - Charles Bukowski